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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
just re read that over i didnt mean to sound whiney, i get where you are all coming from and to someone that really only knows engines and not so much suspension what i thought dave was spewing was gospel, not nonsense.
 

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:) one of the nonsense he is talking about. Either a shock is bad and does not work, or it will be typically worn and ready for service after 20 tkm or 12500 mi. Most OEM shocks are even used much longer without any minding of the rider.
Having worked in a dealership from 83-06 I would agree with your last statement... I've seen riders who have blown out shocks, no oil, bounce the back end like a pogo stick and they didn't seem to mind... It's what you never experience that you "don't mind". Ride with good suspension and odds are you "will mind".

If you want to know one place where the manufacturer can cut a price corner it is on suspension. Rear shocks are notorious money saving points. You cannot tell the quality visually. In most cases the only good ones are the ones that can be taken apart and revalved, new springs as well. Those shocks can be made to perform well enough to do track days and race. Sealed shocks will wear, fluid will break down and there will be no good fix. At least the front forks can be improved.

A lot of people try to short cut on suspension, yet will blow a grand on a pipe. I actually started that way. I wasn't really focused on the suspension until I stumbled on a virtually new Ohlins for sale at about half the retail. Then I got a Matris fork kit for around $350. I decided if I'm keeping the bike I may as well get the suspension to work well. I did a pipe only for appearance and tone - pure ego/aesthetics stuff. The suspension will come in handy every time I ride, I usually don't notice the rear when riding, that's a sign that the suspension is working better than the OEM, which I did notice. The pipe... good tone without high volume, but nothing in the line of improved ride.

If one is on a budget the suspension may be as simple as the change of fork fluid viscosity. I would do some research before doing anything, find out which way to go. Check the FZ/MT and this forum. Find out what fluid weight and if springs would be a wise investment. The rear shock is expensive, so you really need to consider if you're keeping the bike long enough to make it worth it. Of course, if you sell the bike you can always remove the shock, put the stock one back on and sell the other for about half what you paid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Having worked in a dealership from 83-06 I would agree with your last statement... I've seen riders who have blown out shocks, no oil, bounce the back end like a pogo stick and they didn't seem to mind... It's what you never experience that you "don't mind". Ride with good suspension and odds are you "will mind".

If you want to know one place where the manufacturer can cut a price corner it is on suspension. Rear shocks are notorious money saving points. You cannot tell the quality visually. In most cases the only good ones are the ones that can be taken apart and revalved, new springs as well. Those shocks can be made to perform well enough to do track days and race. Sealed shocks will wear, fluid will break down and there will be no good fix. At least the front forks can be improved.

A lot of people try to short cut on suspension, yet will blow a grand on a pipe. I actually started that way. I wasn't really focused on the suspension until I stumbled on a virtually new Ohlins for sale at about half the retail. Then I got a Matris fork kit for around $350. I decided if I'm keeping the bike I may as well get the suspension to work well. I did a pipe only for appearance and tone - pure ego/aesthetics stuff. The suspension will come in handy every time I ride, I usually don't notice the rear when riding, that's a sign that the suspension is working better than the OEM, which I did notice. The pipe... good tone without high volume, but nothing in the line of improved ride.

If one is on a budget the suspension may be as simple as the change of fork fluid viscosity. I would do some research before doing anything, find out which way to go. Check the FZ/MT and this forum. Find out what fluid weight and if springs would be a wise investment. The rear shock is expensive, so you really need to consider if you're keeping the bike long enough to make it worth it. Of course, if you sell the bike you can always remove the shock, put the stock one back on and sell the other for about half what you paid.
the yss rear shock is something ill definitely get. its just knowing what to do with the front. im no Einstein when it comes to suspension thats all so its easy to take dave moss as all knowing
 

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@tjcheshire - i think we are on the same boat. What I got from this thread is that for the guys to help you with some guidance, you need to describe what you are experiencing and how you would like it to behave.

For example, in my case, I feel the front end too bouncy and on harder breaking - but it doesn't need much - the bike dives like crazy to the point it pops the fork gaiters off place. I would like it to bounce less and not dive as much.

Can you describe your case?

I dont want to hijack your thread but would also be thankful for guidance from the forum. After @hombacher and @gnarlydog comments, I'm no longer sure if changing to a thicker oil will help me achieve my goals. Did i got it right that to stop it from bouncing i should try a higher oil level for the suspension to be more progressive, and for stopping it from diving so hard chose a stiffer spring or increase preload/longer spacer? Would a progressive spring help with any of the 2 issues?
 

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so you all suggest i should just put thicker oil in? as far as i was aware cutting the spacer reduces static sag. im 92-95kg depending what i wear. im going to get a yss rear shock as me plus a pillion is just awful riding and im on the stiffest setting.

can someone suggest (something that doesnt cost me an arm and a leg for a 4500gbp bike) a solution for the front fork.
You keep talking about changing the spacers... have you already properly measured your static and rider sag and determined that it is incorrect? If you're heavier than Yamaha designed the bike for, you will need LONGER spacers, not shorter ones, to attain proper preload and sag.

Setting sag (both front and rear) is critical to ANY suspension functioning at its best, and as mentioned, often neglected. I rode for 10+ years without knowing/thinking about sag. But keep in mind that it has nothing to do with improving the damping performance of a given suspension... other than any suspension not set properly for the rider/load will not work as designed. Does the stock suspension leave a lot to be desired if riding in a spirited manner? Yep! But to get a baseline of what the stock suspension is lacking, you have to set the sag first.

Since you're concerned about keeping the cost low, don't just start modifying your suspension without taking measurements. Measure your rear sag and adjust the rear shock preload as needed, this is easy. Measure your front sag and cut longer spacers as needed (PVC works just fine and is dirt cheap). There are plenty of videos/tutorials on this. I like RaceTech's method: Sag Note that for the street, you usually aim for 30-35% of the total suspension travel, so calculate this and aim for that number. Once sag is correct, the stock suspension will be performing at its best. Only then are you truly able to determine where you'd like to make improvements, and thus where best to put your $$.

For the money, I was very happy with the improvement given with RaceTech's gold valve emulators and springs chosen for my weight. I also have an Ohlins rear shock. Huge improvement over stock for the way I ride.

Aaron
 

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Also, I learned this the hard way with cars over the years, but it applies to motorcycles as well: Easy, Cheap, Good... Pick 2. There's no way around this. If you want something to perform very well, whether it's an engine, suspension, brakes, whatever... it's either going to be a LOT of work (i.e. researching parts from other bikes that might fit and fabricating parts to make it work) or a not insignificant sum of money.

Anyone that tells you otherwise has something to gain off the snake oil they're selling you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Also, I learned this the hard way with cars over the years, but it applies to motorcycles as well: Easy, Cheap, Good... Pick 2. There's no way around this. If you want something to perform very well, whether it's an engine, suspension, brakes, whatever... it's either going to be a LOT of work (i.e. researching parts from other bikes that might fit and fabricating parts to make it work) or a not insignificant sum of money.

Anyone that tells you otherwise has something to gain off the snake oil they're selling you.
what i want from the bike is for me to be able to ride it hard with out the suspension feeling super soft and loafy. im hoping a yss shock will fix the rear. my end goal is to turn the bike into its brethren the xsr900 abarth but the 700 variant. itll have an agressive riding stance and ill be riding aggressive on it too. i understand what static sag is, but why in that case does dave moss cut the spacers? he does it for a 200lbs+ looking man on one video and a 130lb give or take woman on another. what does he hope to achieve by cutting it? where can i also get longer spacers from then as i noted on one video he had a bag of various sizes (again settled with the 10mm shorter one as the best one for the 200lbs+ man)
 

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take whatever Dave Moss says with a pinch of salt, he’s not working on your bike with you to get what you want, and I don’t think he’s the suspension guru he makes himself out to be. look at his other videos and watch for him waffling and obviously making shit up. Even his 2 MT07 videos contradict each other.

to get a decent ride (on a budget) “I”, that’s me doing it for me, swapped the rear shock for a standard MT07 with rebound adjustment and fit preload adjusters to the forks, then I started on the rider sag. Adjusted the preload ring on the rear to get 38mm rider sag and cut the spacers inside the forks so I could use the adjusters to get the same sag on the middle setting.
then I started on the rear rebound adjuster and fork oil to reduce the kangarooing until I got a fairly balanced set up.

and before you start with the forks, check the viscosity of the oil you’re using, don’t rely on the number on the bottle, not all oils have the same viscosity ratings.
Just as an example…
Make/index [email protected]
Yamaha G10. 33
Silkolene 10w 34
Agip 10w. 45
Motorex R 10w 53

Yamaha G15. 47
Silkolene 15w. 48
Agip 15w. 70
Motorex R 15w. 70

My advice… if you’re not sure then take it to a specialist
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
take whatever Dave Moss says with a pinch of salt, he’s not working on your bike with you to get what you want, and I don’t think he’s the suspension guru he makes himself out to be. look at his other videos and watch for him waffling and obviously making shit up. Even his 2 MT07 videos contradict each other.

to get a decent ride (on a budget) “I”, that’s me doing it for me, swapped the rear shock for a standard MT07 with rebound adjustment and fit preload adjusters to the forks, then I started on the rider sag. Adjusted the preload ring on the rear to get 38mm rider sag and cut the spacers inside the forks so I could use the adjusters to get the same sag on the middle setting.
then I started on the rear rebound adjuster and fork oil to reduce the kangarooing until I got a fairly balanced set up.

and before you start with the forks, check the viscosity of the oil you’re using, don’t rely on the number on the bottle, not all oils have the same viscosity ratings.
Just as an example…
Make/index [email protected]
Yamaha G10. 33
Silkolene 10w 34
Agip 10w. 45
Motorex R 10w 53

Yamaha G15. 47
Silkolene 15w. 48
Agip 15w. 70
Motorex R 15w. 70

My advice… if you’re not sure then take it to a specialist
Is the mt07 rear shock not the same as the xsr? And what was your reasoning for choosing that over the yss or other examples.

Could you point me in the direction for preload adjusters for front forks?
 

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Is the mt07 rear shock not the same as the xsr? And what was your reasoning for choosing that over the yss or other examples.

Could you point me in the direction for preload adjusters for front forks?
MT07 shock is the same but the later version, 2017+, has rebound adjustment and it was cheap, £70 off eBay
Preload adjusters we’re also off eBay, look for 41mm
 

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what i want from the bike is for me to be able to ride it hard with out the suspension feeling super soft and loafy. im hoping a yss shock will fix the rear. my end goal is to turn the bike into its brethren the xsr900 abarth but the 700 variant. itll have an agressive riding stance and ill be riding aggressive on it too. i understand what static sag is, but why in that case does dave moss cut the spacers? he does it for a 200lbs+ looking man on one video and a 130lb give or take woman on another. what does he hope to achieve by cutting it? where can i also get longer spacers from then as i noted on one video he had a bag of various sizes (again settled with the 10mm shorter one as the best one for the 200lbs+ man)
You may want to go to some appropriate springs for your weight and the way you will ride. I've used Progressive Suspension progressive wind springs with good experience. I still have a yet to be installed Matris fork kit for my XSR, has shim stack damping, spring, and preload adjustable caps.

Screwed up my shoulder lifting an MB5 off my lift to get my KLX250 on it to prep for a dual sport ride. Now I'm in therapy to deal with rotator cuff damage, so the kit sits on the shelf awaiting my ability to install it. :sick:
 

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[..] I'm no longer sure if changing to a thicker oil will help me achieve my goals. Did i got it right that to stop it from bouncing i should try a higher oil level for the suspension to be more progressive, and for stopping it from diving so hard chose a stiffer spring or increase preload/longer spacer? Would a progressive spring help with any of the 2 issues?
I estimate the sag question is already checked?

As I always say, the forks of MT/XSR are okay so far, as you are a typical Western standard buddy with 75 to 85 kg. I choose this range as often the suspension manufacturers and the the OEM docs switch by showing the rider's weight. Some use the rider's weight only, some do it by showing the rider in riding gear.

Whatever the bouncing is, I would first try to increase the rebound at your rear shock. If the spring rate fits to your weight, the sag is right, there should be a permanent solid feel of, the wheels are on the ground.
Maybe in curves it gets a little more obvious, constant riding height even over bumps, and a very good control, planted when you go full throttle after the edge of the curve.

If this is done, you can go for the forks improvement. A higher oil level will increase the progression. But a real improvement will only be done by a cartridge or a valving solution.
Progressive springs can make riding better. But I call them a convenience product solution, they can help, but there is no guarantee, it is a more or less one fits all offer. But if a pair of Wilbers or HyperPro work, it is a budget solution for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
hi all. rider sag 15mm,

ive bought preload adjusters and will probabl cut the spacers 10mm with 15w oil.

cutting them 10mm will allow 10mm either side of stock preload to play wth
 

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hi all. rider sag 15mm,

ive bought preload adjusters and will probabl cut the spacers 10mm with 15w oil.

cutting them 10mm will allow 10mm either side of stock preload to play wth
The question is, how much did you get from the text above? 15 mm rider sag is not very much. Do you think preload adjusters and heavier oil are now the right way to go?

If you unload the front, losen the upper triple clamp screws and remove the fork caps, you will see there is close to no preload to the springs. What effect do you notice?


In my world, I would measure the rider sag again, maybe there is some wrong measuring?
 

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I estimate the sag question is already checked?

As I always say, the forks of MT/XSR are okay so far, as you are a typical Western standard buddy with 75 to 85 kg. I choose this range as often the suspension manufacturers and the the OEM docs switch by showing the rider's weight. Some use the rider's weight only, some do it by showing the rider in riding gear.

Whatever the bouncing is, I would first try to increase the rebound at your rear shock. If the spring rate fits to your weight, the sag is right, there should be a permanent solid feel of, the wheels are on the ground.
Maybe in curves it gets a little more obvious, constant riding height even over bumps, and a very good control, planted when you go full throttle after the edge of the curve.

If this is done, you can go for the forks improvement. A higher oil level will increase the progression. But a real improvement will only be done by a cartridge or a valving solution.
Progressive springs can make riding better. But I call them a convenience product solution, they can help, but there is no guarantee, it is a more or less one fits all offer. But if a pair of Wilbers or HyperPro work, it is a budget solution for sure.
The rear static sag is 15mm. The dynamic sag is 52mm. Please note the Wilbers sock has 150mm travel. I try the 30-40mm recommended but the rear was very stiff and no static sag at all. Than I realized the OEM sock has only 130mm travel and the Wilbers is 150mm.
I played around with the rebound setting 2 click at the time in both directions and always felt worst. Therefore reverted to the default - 12 click out (max 22).
The spring rate is 130N/mm recommended by Wilbert for my weight and riding habits - 82kg without gear, no luggage, no pillion, back roads, +/- spirited riding but not crazy.

I'm pretty happy with the rear and honestly didn't bother measuring sag at the front since is not adjustable. Maybe this is my first failure?!

The bouncing doesn't bothers me as much as the deep diving under heavy breaking. What I mean with bouncy is when I off the bike fully compress the front and release, the front bounces back fast and after reaching a high point, drops around 5-10mm to the rest position. I was expecting the bike to bounce directly to the rest position. Are my expectation wrong and the suspension is behaving like it should?

The deep diving concerns me the must. It dives so far that the fork gaiters pop out of place. I think I need stiffer springs or more preload, i.e. longer spacers. Is my thinking correct?
What are the oem spring rate and what would you do in my place?

Thanks in advance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
The question is, how much did you get from the text above? 15 mm rider sag is not very much. Do you think preload adjusters and heavier oil are now the right way to go?

If you unload the front, losen the upper triple clamp screws and remove the fork caps, you will see there is close to no preload to the springs. What effect do you notice?


In my world, I would measure the rider sag again, maybe there is some wrong measuring?
i ended up getting a suspension nerd in for it so measurements should be all right.
 

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i ended up getting a suspension nerd in for it so measurements should be all right.
Jepp, understood, brings me back to the question, what did you get from the discussion before? Do you think that a rider sag of 15 mm is sufficient?

See above, typical calculation is 30 - 35% of the travel, XSR fork travel is 130 mm.
 

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[..]

The deep diving concerns me the must. It dives so far that the fork gaiters pop out of place. I think I need stiffer springs or more preload, i.e. longer spacers. Is my thinking correct?
What are the oem spring rate and what would you do in my place?

Thanks in advance.
Either too hard, too much material for the stroke or the ventilation holes too small or not punched, can make popp them off the position.

Typical behaviour of linear springs at right weight is, that they get compressed under braking to a certain level, rest of the stroke is still available for traveling under compression.
Bad thing, with gaiters you will not see the travel in a glance. Or check by the ziptie method under the gaiter?
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Jepp, understood, brings me back to the question, what did you get from the discussion before? Do you think that a rider sag of 15 mm is sufficient?

See above, typical calculation is 30 - 35% of the travel, XSR fork travel is 130 mm.
new 15w oil, preload adjusters and spacers cut by 10mm. i now have 35mm of rider sag which i feel is sufficient. front end feels so much better. next is progressive spring and eventually a new rear spring.
 

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Either too hard, too much material for the stroke or the ventilation holes too small or not punched, can make popp them off the position.

Typical behaviour of linear springs at right weight is, that they get compressed under braking to a certain level, rest of the stroke is still available for traveling under compression.
Bad thing, with gaiters you will not see the travel in a glance. Or check by the ziptie method under the gaiter?
I definitely need to enlarge the ventilation holes. I think the gaiters popping out o place is related to that.

I placed a ziptie under the gaiter and got the following results. total travel 133mm. Ziptie is at 93mm. @hombacher is this ok?
 
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